[00:00.2]
How did you know that you want to be a pastor at 13? My dad was a very rough man when I was young. Good man, but he just had a violent streak to him. You've done so many different hustles. Yeah, 15,600. That was my starting full-time income as a pastor. You almost expect some inevitable fall from grace when your life is under a microscope.
[00:17.8]
The environment of the church really creates a breeding ground for the best and the worst of humanity. A lot of friends going through divorces and having to start over. But then people will treat their wife. Like they're transient. The gold, the glory, and the girls. Oh. Welcome to Think Incursive.
[00:35.7]
My name is Brandon Leonard and today's exploration of curiosity is a conversation with my buddy Pastor Ross Wiseman of Momentum Church in Woodstock, Georgia. Here we go. Welcome to Think Incursive I'm here today with my buddy Pastor Ross Weisman out of Momentum Church.
[00:51.9]
We're just going to make some space for curiosity and then just kind of see where the conversation goes. I really Appreciate you coming over and making time today. Yeah, thanks for having me. You're a cool guy, an adventurer. You've got you're a parent of many across lots of years. Yeah, and 29 down to 11.
[01:09.2]
Which is probably cool because you got your your kids got different versions of parents. They really have each time. They really have. You know, the oldest kids got the McDonald parents, and the old younger kids they get to go to Longhorns, you know. So yeah.
[01:26.4]
Different, different stage of life. That's pretty cool. And now you got a grandson. Yeah, two a grandson and a granddaughter. Yeah, and a granddaughter. Yeah. Three-year-old and a one-year-old. So yeah, a lot of fun. So I'm a pawpaw. That's got to be fun. It's so funny with our first set of kids, we started young. You know, I'm from a factory town, and so you get married young, you have babies young.
[01:44.2]
So when we moved to Woodstock years ago, people would think that we were, is that your parents? You know, because we were so young. And now with this set, because we had a 10-year gap between our sets. With this set, they'll be like, "Is that your grandparents?" It's like, "Shut up." You know, so it's funny.
[02:00.7]
So you came down here from Ohio how long ago? 05. Okay. April 05. Yeah, I came down with a ministry associate to kind of establish some, get things rolling before we started the church. You know, I didn't, I saw a lot of church planters raise their finances, and then they don't have people yet, but they take a full-time salary.
[02:19.8]
Wait, let me back up for a second because this is wild because you wanted to be a pastor since you were in. What high school, middle school. Yeah. How did you know that you want to be a pastor at 13? So my dad was a very rough man when I was young. Now was he already a pastor? No, no, no. Not well not when I was little.
[02:35.1]
But he he was just a a rough guy, you know, not raised religiously Jewish, but like you know his mom and dad were both non-practicing Jews, you know. Good man, but he just had a violent streak to him. And so when I was young, he was fairly abusive. And then dad came to faith in Christ.
[02:51.7]
And we saw dad's life change, and through the years, he had you know multiple hair salons and pawn shops, and he's just a he's a businessman, you know. Yeah. But lost all that interest in that, and went to Bible college, went into ministry. So, when I saw Jesus change our home, you know, I really wanted to to introduce people to that Jesus, and that was before I didn't know all the stuff about the legalism and religion and all the ugliness that church can bring at times, because it can.
[03:19.2]
I will be honest, it can. But all I knew was this Jesus changed our family, and so at a young age, about 13, I started telling people I was going to be a preacher. So you must have experienced that before age of 13 to to have that formative kind of thinking. Yeah, yeah, I came to Christ I think at five when I was really little.
[03:36.3]
Didn't get baptized till I was about 10. And then when I was 13, that's the year I really went after in the spring. I can remember it was March, you know. I really went after the things of God that year and and continued in that vein. Until I graduated high school, there were some TV preachers when I was in like 10th, 11th grade that had moral failure.
[03:55.7]
And when that happened, my last couple years of high school, it was kind of like they can't keep it together. How could I ever keep life together? I had pedestalled preachers too. The way people look at ball players and movie stars, that's how I looked at pastors and evangelists and it was it just it geeked me out as a as a teenager.
[04:12.6]
So when these guys had failure, it was like I'm not gonna go this way. And so as soon as I graduated high school for the next six months, I ran hard away from right away from faith, away from the calling. You know, I just tried the world, if you will. And about six months into it, it's like, what am I doing? You know, I was a biology major.
[04:29.1]
I'm gonna be a veterinarian now. You know, go save dogs. God's like, no, I've called you to help save people. So so six months into it, you know, I'm like, this isn't what I know who what God's called me to do. And Not to belabor it, but I think it's the best part of that story. A lady at my dad's church, it was like an aunt.
[04:46.0]
She said, "You're not the same Ross Allen that you've always been." And I, "Yeah, yeah, I'm fine." And she's like, "No, no." She goes, "You're you're running from who you once were, chasing somebody you're not, and you're going to spend the rest of your life trying to find who you once were. Like you're you're running away from who you've always been, and you're chasing something." And that night in my room, just right before my 19th birthday.
[05:06.3]
I just, man, had an encounter with the Holy Spirit, fresh and anew, repentance, whatever you want, Jesus, it's yours. And I finished, that was 1st November, I finished that semester of college, and then the plan was to go to Bible college the next September. You know, so this is around, finishing December that semester, and God is my witness.
[05:23.9]
By March, a guy needed a worship leader at a little church eight hours from where I lived. He goes, "I know you feel like a call in your life. I can't pay you, but if you'll come live here." You know, you can work at the church and and we'll feed you and house you and you can kind of see if this is the call that God has.
[05:39.8]
So I moved to Pennsylvania and within a month of being there, people in the church started calling me Pastor Ross. I was 19 years old. I told the pastor, thinking he would correct them, and he just put his finger up and he goes, "Live up to it." And so it's been 34 years of trying to just live up to it. I did get to seminary years later, but but but starting out, that's how I started ministry.
[05:58.2]
19 years old, March of 92, just about four and a half months. After I was doing all this crazy stuff in the world, trying to, I guess, trying to shake the spirit, trying to shake the call off me, trying to outrun God, you know, and God's grace was just when He said, "Okay, it's time." It was four and a half months later.
[06:17.1]
I'm in in full-time ministry and been in ministry since since then. My wife says is God has her on a short leash. Yeah. And you know to wander for four or six months. To me sounds like a short league. Yeah, I think so. I know, I mean, I pushed hard, you know, not everything I was pushing hard on was legal.
[06:34.3]
We'll just say that. So, but then 05 we moved here to start the church, and so I've seen planters raise money, and then they take a full-time income the first year or two of a church plant, and they don't have people yet. And so then they run through all their their they they they spin their nut, it's gone, and now they have to close up shop.
[06:54.2]
And now there's a handful of people that believe in their vision, and they're crushed. And I was like, I'm not playing with people's hearts. So my ministry associate Jared, he's been with us all these years. He and I moved down. He got a job. I started a business, and you know, I was like, we're gonna make our own income.
[07:10.1]
And we both took our rent from the money we raised, but that was it. And then we began to build the church and took salaries later, you know. So I'm curious. You said something a minute ago. About this encounter with the Holy Spirit, if anybody listens to this, right, and they're may they're maybe wondering like, okay, what is what is that what does that mean?
[07:28.5]
Yeah, yeah. Could you elaborate on that? You know, so the Holy Spirit is the the executor of the Godhead. He's, if you will, the finger of God. There's one God, all right, but we're Trinitarians, so we believe there's one God, but He has Father, Son, Holy Spirit. It's kind of like an egg, okay?
[07:44.7]
So if you think of an egg, it's an egg, but there's three parts: yoke. You know the yellow the the the clear and the shell you know there's there's three parts or it's like ice I think ice is a better example if you think of water what's water H2 H2O yeah so you can freeze it and it's an ice cube it's still what still water it's H2O you can have water liquid that you drink it's H2O you can put it on a stove and steam comes up you capture the steam it's H2O no more H2O no less H2O so when I think of the Trinity that's kind of how I picture it You know, each are the exact, it's God, but there's different functions.
[08:22.1]
And so, just like the steam, the ice, the you know, Jesus is the living water, and so on. And so, the Holy Spirit is when we say that we sense God or God's leading, or it's it's the Holy Spirit that's doing that in our lives. And I think that's an active relationship with a living God. And so, as hard as I tried to push that away, as soon as I pursued, you know, the Bible says if you'll draw near to God, He draws near to you.
[08:45.1]
And so. Literally that one night in my bedroom, I drew near. Didn't take, you said a short leash. That's how it felt. Didn't take much. Cracked the door open a little, and his presence. I just, man, it was just overwhelming. You know, got my guitar out. Hadn't played worship songs for a long while and started playing worship.
[09:02.5]
Started weeping before the Lord. Not that emotion is a sign of spiritual things always, but it was a about a two hour just time of giving everything back to the Lord and. Okay, Lord, and I felt like God was like, you know what, being a Christ follower means you follow my will, and my will is for you to be a minister.
[09:18.1]
And so, okay, I'll accept that. And I think a lot of it was insecurity, just not feeling like I could ever live up to it. Again, now 34 years later, there's nothing to live up to, you know. The one of the greatest mentors of my life was a plumber, you know, it wasn't a preacher, it was a plumber. And so everybody has a call on their life, everybody has an anointing that God uses to make impact and differences.
[09:37.5]
It's just He chooses for me to be on that platform delivering the word, you know. And but it was like my my my will's for you to be in ministry and all right Lord I'll I'll pursue that and I just didn't expect him to open the door so quickly you know I figured I would go to Bible college you know the typical route did you hear like audibly no I mean I I it's I don't I feel like I've only heard God audibly twice in my life and it was just my name it was just to catch my attention and one was almost a car wreck I fell asleep at the wheel and I heard Ross And when I opened my eyes, I had just enough time to steer away from a car that was parked on the side of the highway that was incapacitated.
[10:16.3]
It wasn't working. Nobody was in it, you know. But it was just enough time to get away from it. And then one other time, again, it was just to catch my attention. But no, I wish I heard God's voice all the time. I'm not, I'm not one of those preachers that God told me this. I heard this. I, you know. But there's times you just know, you know, like coming to Georgia.
[10:32.5]
It was weird. It was in a dream. I don't have dreams. And I had a dream that we went to Georgia and planted a church that planted churches. I held on to that for five years before I came. Wasn't about to just change my whole life because I had a dream, but it just grew. And in those five years, one thing after another kept pointing toward coming to Georgia.
[10:49.7]
I want to pay attention to that because that sounds so foreign to so many people, right? Like, well, maybe God was just validating certain steps. Yeah. How would you say that? I do think that there's something to the reticular activating system that we have.
[11:04.7]
You know within our our brainstem, you know that allows us to make connections, allows us to find patterns and things like that. But I think God places that there. I think that's physiologically within us, but I think God can use that, you know. And so I I think my reticular activating system was on peak and just over those five years, you know, there would be stories that would come out of of of Atlanta and the region.
[11:30.3]
I'd be at a church service and somebody would be talking about. Atlanta. I mean, I'm all the way near close to Cleveland, Ohio. I mean, I'm I'm way up in the north, and but just thing after thing kept pointing it or just church planting in general. The church if you know what church planting is, you know, going to a community and starting a new church.
[11:47.2]
That's church planting, you know, and so there would be somebody just talking about church planting and and it would just be like yeah and I love the church I pastored at. I was an associate pastor of a growing church in Ohio. Was there almost 11 years. I I love that. Church. It was my church, the church my my wife grew up in.
[12:03.8]
When I came back from Pennsylvania, I met her pastor and it was a new pastor. Built a relationship with him and and he just started having me come and and preach to their adults. I was only 21 at that time. Yeah, I think he wanted to know if they would receive a young guy as an associate. He didn't need a youth pastor.
[12:19.0]
He needed an associate. And so after about four or five months, I didn't know he was looking at me. He brought me on staff, you know. But just that idea of. I knew I was called to be a pastor, you know, but then this idea of starting something from scratch, that was kind of a new thing. But over five years, I just finally got to a point where I felt like God was like, "Are you gonna let me be God, or are you gonna let this church be God?" Because the church was incredible.
[12:41.5]
My my income at that church had quadrupled. That sounds impressive. Guess what my starting income was? Fifteen thousand six hundred. That was my starting full-time income as a pastor. When I was 21 years old, yeah. So no, it had it hadn't quite quadrupled, but it you know it had it had done well, you know a little bit better and because the church had grown, you know.
[13:01.6]
And so I say all that to say it was a lot to leave, leave our home, our family, the ministry that my wife's only been a part of two churches, that church and Momentum Church, the church we pastor now, you know. So yeah it was it was it was hard. We we were in that church when it went from 200 to 1000.
[13:18.5]
In 10 years on Sunday morning attendance in a town of 50, 55,000 people, so it was a it was a big deal. But again, I had that dream and I don't dream and I wrote down I journal, so I journaled about it and and long story short, just over those years, thing after thing would just keep pointing that that I've called you to be a planter to start, you know.
[13:40.5]
And like I said, in the dream, it was we planted a church that planted churches, you know, and and we've done that. One thing I like about you is you are extremely resourceful and industrious. You've done so many different hustles. Yeah. And what people don't often realize is especially the nature of Momentum Church.
[13:59.1]
I mean, it's tougher than I mean it is it is a startup. Yeah. It's a startup company and I have a lot of friends that own businesses and you know I'm a small business owner but at the same time there are these elements that Are so counter-economic. Right. Before we started the discussion here on the interview, you're talking about you know visiting people and making plumbing repairs for people you know four hour you know on your days off and you've always been very generous with your time.
[14:25.3]
How do you balance? I mean obviously you you've learned how to balance this act so you don't get burned out but you know it does seem like yeah every high profile pastor almost every not not every but you know You almost expect some inevitable fall from grace when your life is under a microscope and you're you're you're put in a position of power.
[14:44.3]
Yep. Read this book called *The Power Paradox*. We're generally elected. We're given power by being trustworthy and leading, and then inevitably our pride, you know, changes once we receive power and we're in a position of power. Yeah. And it's so difficult to just consistently walk the line.
[15:02.2]
Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that is a church problem or is that just a human problem? I think it's both. I think it's an environmental problem. You know, it's the environment of the church can it really creates a breeding ground for the best and the worst of humanity. Yeah.
[15:17.2]
Okay. So if a person comes into ministry young and it is about ego, it is about pride, it's about their esteem and things like that, I think that success can be their worst nightmare. My pastor said something wonderful when we moved to Georgia, not because I thought I was anything incredible.
[15:35.3]
It's just everything we put our hands to since I was 19 has increased fast. So with that, you know, I thought we would plant this church and it would be 1500 in five, 10 years, you know, and it's the slowest thing we've ever seen grow. But my pastor, he would say, "God has to build a pastor before he builds a church." And I really believe that my 30s.
[15:58.1]
And into my mid 40s, you know, our first 10, 12 years of the church, you know, we're we're almost like 20 years old now. But the first 10, 12 years was hard. It was tough, and I would get so mad at God. God, I don't understand this. I remember one time saying, "God, it's not like I'm selling crack cocaine down here.
[16:14.3]
I'm trying to introduce people to Jesus, you know. But God was doing a work in my heart that I think created sustainability until I retire. Whenever that is, John of the Cross, an ancient. Patristic father, he he said that unless the heart goes through the dark night of the soul, a person's virtues can become vices.
[16:31.0]
And so when everything was going haywire years ago, and I couldn't understand it, I came across that saying, and it just the Lord's like, "This has been my grace. This has allowed you to be the husband you need to be, the dad you need to be, the friend you need to be, the man you need to be. This is this slow growth is is my grace.
[16:46.2]
And there was two different pastor friends I had that churches grew super fast, you know, a thousand in three years. And I'm like, what in the world? But both lost their marriages. They both had mortal failure, and God just said, "This is my grace." I think that virtue of faith was always within me. God can do big things.
[17:01.6]
I always believed it, but left unchecked in my 30s into my early 40s, it would be God could do big things through Ross. Look what I've accomplished. Look what I did when I went to the church in PA. Look what happened to the church that I was a part of in Mansfield, in Ohio. Now look what's happened here, and that didn't happen.
[17:18.8]
And so I think God cared enough that He's like, "I'm not going to allow this to be a quick work." But man, it's been a solid work. So basically, who you are is is shaped by that environment. And if there's flaws and you don't get those flaws fixed, you don't get those flaws through therapy or counseling or healing or medicine, whatever it is.
[17:37.5]
If you don't get those flaws fixed. You know, I think the environment of the church can be something that can increase their narcissism, increase their pride, increase their sense of entitlement. Look at all I do. I deserve this. And the next thing you know, you start touching the three G's. You know what the 3 G's are: the gold, the glory, and the girls.
[17:56.5]
Oh, of course. Yeah, yeah. As a pastor, man, you got to stay away from the 3 G's, man. Let him have the glory. Don't get prideful. Obviously, stay close to that wife. Don't go chasing no girls. And then don't touch the money, you know, like the gold, you know. So in my home, there's not my wife saying to me, "Oh, great job making the bed, honey.
[18:13.4]
That was so awesome. I'm so glad you did that." You know, you picked up your drawers. You know, like no, but at church, oh man, what a great sermon. Oh, when you did this, that was such a blessing. I was so glad you came and visited me at the hospital. It's an environment like that, and so it's easy for people to, pastors to get lost in the church, because they're lost around a fan base, if you will, if you believe that.
[18:35.0]
And guess what? Your family's your family. They're not your fans. They're your family, and family life's difficult. But that's where the true, that's what lasts. I'll be with Amy when I'm 90. Should we live you that long? We just celebrated our 32nd wedding anniversary. Congratulations. But she's not going anywhere.
[18:51.8]
But then people will treat their wife like they're transient. No, your your experience at the church is transient. You know, even if you're there 25 years, it's you know, I plan on being married to Amy 50 years as long as we are alive. Yeah. But the church can become an environment that really, if you're not being developed, if you allow your base nature as a man to be assuaged.
[19:11.4]
To be stroked there from what the church brings, man, I think that creates a perfect environment for failure. Yeah, so you and Amy were, you knew each other in middle school. I met her when she was 10. Yeah, the weekend I turned 13, my neighbor boy was my best friend and his sister was her best friend and so they brought her over to to meet me and I thought she was cute then.
[19:33.5]
I was like, oh my gosh, she's so cute. My buddy's like, she's a fifth grader. You know, I I was thinking I was a seventh grader. And so, but when she came to our school in high school, her freshman year, I started chasing her. I was a junior, and she she wasn't allowed to date. So toward the middle of our, I guess March of my senior year, is when we started dating.
[19:52.6]
And so she was a sophomore and dated until I went to that year internship at the church and PA. She dated around that year, and yeah. Have you heard that Harvard study, the longest running study? Where kids were students started back in the 1930s and it's the longest running it's still going on today but initially it was students both in Harvard as well as just local kids and they tracked them they checked in every six months just to see what's going on with their lives yeah I have heard of that right so the punchline is what brings people happiness what's the the longevity factor of people's life and the single Biggest variable was the quality of their immediate relationships.
[20:34.1]
Yeah, it wasn't socioeconomics, it wasn't intelligence, it wasn't health or genetics, but the single thing was the quality of you know their spouse. And it might not, I mean, people might even fight regularly, but right. Oh man, Amy and I, whew, she's Italian and she is feisty.
[20:52.6]
And so yeah, we we I love that about her though. You know, it's like I tell people all the time, if you fight with respect, you'll build respect. Yeah, and she fights with respect, and but she's just not a pushover, and and I like that feistiness. I think that's been a part of our our our bond. But yeah, it's it's the quality of my life definitely is tied to my wife.
[21:09.8]
Now, it is a lot to do with we have similar interests in one area, the outdoors. You know, our faith, our family, and the outdoors. That's really beyond that. Her movie interests are different. Her everything's different. But but the outdoors has always been our go-to together.
[21:27.4]
And so backpacking, kayaking, camping, I mean, just it's always been what we we lean into. So I remember I remember she was probably 17 and we were canoeing and we pulled off into some flats, having lunch with some friends there on the bank. And she gets back in the creek, reaches down under a rock.
[21:44.2]
Now you gotta remember this is in the 80s, so she has all this big rocker hair, like huge hair. And I can still picture this like light blue shirt and these white shorts and all this rocker hair. And she reaches under a rock and she pulls out the biggest crawdad you ever saw.
[22:00.8]
This diva is standing here in this creek going, "Hey, look, it's a big one, it's a big one." And I'm just like, "Oh, I gotta marry this girl." She baits her own hook. Are you kidding me? And so our whole marriage, you know, we've we've camped and just done the outdoor thing.
[22:16.2]
That's and backpacked and. How much of your success professionally, you know, personally, would you say has been magnified or? Elevated because of Amy. Man, I I mean, you would say like 50-50, but I think it's probably more than that. I'd probably say, you know, like 70-30 or or 60-40 because of her, you know.
[22:38.1]
People don't see all that she does behind the scenes, but people don't see what she does for me. Like she challenges me, she keeps me rooted, you know. There's an edge to her. You talk about how do you hear from God. There's something that sometimes she'll just say something it's like ooh that was from the Lord you know like she just has a a neat ability to see into things and to speak truth and so yeah so Amy's been fantastic and and things at the church as well you know our our first three years as we grew or two years out of about a hundred people only 30 of them had come from church you know it was a rough group of people You know, which is awesome.
[23:17.9]
That's why we planted this church. You know, years ago we were in a movie theater starting the church out, and I can remember going, "God, there's no, there's nobody. I, it's leaders, hardly at all. Like, like bring me leaders. And and one lady I remember she was making coffee in the foyer and this cute little family came in all suited up, look little dresses and and I'm like, oh wow, like an established churchy type family coming.
[23:41.6]
Wow. They got in the foyer and the lady making coffee dropped the coffee grounds and hollered out, "Oh, like F, right as loud as she, and man, that little family, they their heinies got tight. They turned around, they walked out, and I'm just going, "God, what am I going to do?
[23:58.1]
I got to have leaders." So I'm talking to Amy about it, and she said, "Jesus didn't have any leaders, but in three years, he took 12 men and changed the world." And then and then her little cute dig, she's like, "It's been two years. What are you doing?" Like, like, come on. And so I'm like, oh, so we handpicked a handful of people, and we created something called discipleship for leadership, and we began leadership development.
[24:19.9]
And were they rough? Some of them. Yeah, I mean, some of them. Did they drink to excess? Some of them. Did they use other substances? Some of them. But that's who I had to work with. And now all these years later, they're amazing, God-following, life-changed people making an impact.
[24:38.3]
So, but it was Amy that was the one she was the impetus of that. My stage in life, a lot of you know a lot of friends going through divorces and having to start over. I kind of get excited because I have been divorced and excited when people have the rug pulled out from under them because it's an opportunity to rewrite the script.
[24:57.8]
Even when a lot of people can't see anything other than their failure, I'm like, oh, your comeback is going to be glorious. Yeah. You know, this is your chance to actually. evaluate yeah where you want to be. There's something so life-giving about definitely being a new creation every day.
[25:14.0]
Going through the exercise of being a touring musician and a songwriter and allowing myself to be a creative and then going back into corporate and then into you know real estate and flipping houses and stuff. Often I feel like a personal pressure to not you know to to spend my time in very strategic and accountable ways.
[25:34.8]
Yeah. But when I was a songwriter You know, I was I would chase creativity, right? Right. You know, cause I it it would never be considered a wasted moment, right? Right. To be pursuing inspiration. Even if it was just space, it was okay to have space because sometimes the best art comes when there's space.
[25:51.2]
Yeah, you gotta have. You didn't feel guilty having that. You gotta have margin. Yeah. Yeah. And and you know when we get busy that's the first thing that you know creative space and downtime is one of the first thing that's sacrificed, right? I'm saying that to hear it myself in a season with little kids. Yeah. You know where there's just so much need, but there's such beauty and I just I feel called to just chase the creativity.
[26:12.5]
That's what this is really all about. Yeah. You know and it's fun because can have anybody in here right with the concept of play and there's so many cool expressions of play with all the different people I interact with and you know I I'm just curious too because it is often a big emotional weight yeah to be in a public authority figure in the church yep you probably know of everybody's like worst problems yeah I guess how do you balance that how do you balance that and not get weighed and not get cynical because it does seem like almost inevitable you're either going to burn out or you're going to find the way to bounce off the walls right just the right amount to where it's sustainable or right right you know Amy does help with that you know I I struggle with sabbatical taking days off things like that just taking a sabbath day off and it was probably only about seven years ago that I went through a a physical time of of transformation just getting healthier physically so then I started getting healthier mentally and it's only been about seven years since I've had a day off because I thought you know I did have a day off my day off was Thursday at noon to Friday at noon and the reason why I did that was because if somebody on Wednesday said hey pastor can you come make this hospital visit tomorrow yeah I'll be there at 10.
[27:26.9]
You know, and then on Thursday afternoon, somebody calls and there's an issue. Yeah, I can do it tomorrow at 11. You know, like like I could every day of the week, I could make an appointment, but I still got my 24 hours technically. And and so about seven years ago, I I I was called on the carpet by my board at the church.
[27:44.1]
Do you take a day off? And I'm like, well, yeah, this is what I do. And they're like, no, a day where literally from the time you wake up to the time you go to bed, it's a day off. And I'm like, no, I've been in ministry now 34 years. I it was only 7 years ago that I started taking a day off. I take sat Fridays off. I take Fridays off. I remember my first Friday off that was just off.
[28:00.5]
It was life-giving. It was like waking up and just nothing, not nothing today, this afternoon, tonight, and and that's just man, it's a reset every week, you know. And what's crazy is when my day off was the way it was before, there was always emergencies on Thursdays, so it would get into that evening off.
[28:19.5]
Always, do you know there's never any emergencies on Fridays? I'm serious. I don't know what it is about Fridays that nobody ever has an issue on Fridays. Never get a call on Fridays. You know, I think people are getting out of work, getting home, you know, TGIF and getting with their families and and now come Saturday morning I'll get calls.
[28:37.5]
But Fridays are quiet and so the last seven years it's been a a good reset. As far as the burden, you're saying you you you you hear all this, you know, as a pastor you realize you're an under shepherd. Jesus is the shepherd, you know, and so just like they're coming to you, they're Coming to Jesus, but you know they're they're wanting to hear from their pastor.
[28:55.5]
It's just like they're doing that. It's like I take those things to Jesus, and I have to lift that burden off me. I can't. I can't be the healer. I can't be the deliverer. I can't be the the miracle worker. That's Jesus. I can just play my part. And so as long as I can go to bed at night knowing I've played my part, I rest okay.
[29:10.6]
You know, and there is there is issues. You know, there's there's people in the church that have went through cancer that just it just Crushed my heart. I remember I was writing a curriculum for a marriage seminar that we did in a Southeast Asian country. I can't I can't name and I was supposed to have it done because it was being translated in two different dialects and I just couldn't finish it.
[29:30.7]
The lady in our church was dying and it just overwhelmed my mind and for two weeks I called them. I'm like I I just can't I I go to write and all I can think of is this girl and so you know so I got the document in two weeks late. It all worked out you know but But so yeah, there is times where it is mentally overwhelming.
[29:46.9]
But I think through the years, having a good wife, also I have a good team. I don't carry all those burdens alone. And a good counselor. Years ago, I started going to counseling. Counseling's awesome. Therapy's awesome. I think a lot of where pastors fail is they try to do it all, carry it all, and then next thing you know, it's like they are broken, and then they make decisions out of that brokenness that affect their family and the church forever.
[30:09.7]
You could probably swap that. When you said most pastors fall into this trend, you could say most most dads, most men, such a universal. It's true. It's true. Thing. It's a cycle. And you know, again, just chasing that kind of white space or that margin or that area to not be evaluated.
[30:26.7]
Like I went to the skate park this morning. Yeah. You know, and I love the fact that I can go play and I can just go be a lousy skateboarder at 6:30 in the morning. Yep. Yep. And there's nobody out there and I can just play. Yeah. And it's fun. Yeah. Cause everywhere else in my life, I'm evaluated and graded.
[30:44.2]
Well, and I do think that there's times where you go toward coping mechanisms that just aren't healthy and chasing dopamine, you know. Yeah. And again, pastors, we see the result of that at times, but all men, everybody, we chase that. And and I did too. You know, I was an athlete all through my 20s and early 30s.
[31:01.5]
Dirt biking and soccer, World Cup. Oh my gosh, it was amazing this year. We don't we don't want to get into it, but it was fantastic. What a world cup, but I played soccer until I was like 31, and then I tore my knee up and then I broke my shoulder dirt biking and I just had like a two-year window where I just couldn't catch a break and I started going to food.
[31:20.0]
That was my my out and then we moved here to plant the church and guess what? Planting a church is stressful and I love my wife so I wasn't pursuing any other vices you know I I I wasn't if I get high You know, I wouldn't. Somebody asked me one time, they said, "Pastor, you've ever been drunk?" And I'm like, "No, I've been high.
[31:38.3]
Well, I've never been drunk, but I have been high. But if I go get high, now mind you, that was in that window. Remember that window. Okay, let's take you back. But if I go get high, I'm gonna lose my job. You know, if I go get drunk, I'm gonna lose my job. If I chase women, I'm gonna lose my wife. I'm gonna lose, you know, and my job. But food, nobody ever faults you for food.
[31:56.4]
And so for a 14-year period, that was my out. It wasn't healthy out. And probably brought more tension in my marriage than anything else because I went from being an athlete to being 300 pounds at 5'8. I was pretty chunky seven, eight years ago, and so had a transformation seven, eight years ago, got things turned around, and then a few years ago realized, okay, I've lost all this weight.
[32:20.5]
Now what? And so I started running. And you've been on the trail with me before. It was so ambitious when you're like, I'm gonna and then you went out and did these ultra runs. Yeah, yeah. It was really. It was really cool. It was really inspiring. Yeah, I'm like my knee you know clicks a little and you're out there you know tearing up the trail yeah you know logging serious miles you know yeah yeah and I gotta say I do really appreciate that you are you've got such an authenticity too and a comfort level at least a perceived comfort level in sharing your real struggles and that became my out was running going out in the woods running and and then last summer I had an injury And guess what?
[32:58.2]
Went back to food, you know, put like 40 pounds on. You know, I've dropped 20 of that, so I'm headed back the right way. But but I've got two ultra marathons on the calendar for November and December, and so we'll see if we can be ready again for them. You know, y'all have to come out the woods and run with me again. Hey, I was reminded yesterday that even at 2 p.m.
[33:15.8]
Lita Thompson is still very runnable. Oh, I went and I did a 5k. Dude, it was nice. I love that's a that's a great trail. You don't have to think when you run that trail. Yeah, there's not really roots, rocks. I mean, they're there, but they're not. They're all everything. Such a navigable trail. Yeah. Now, the one that we did at Bowling Park, yeah, that place will kill you.
[33:32.1]
You got to pay attention. There's off camber running, you know. That's been kind of like just getting a healthy coping mechanism has really benefited my family too. Like I would fast, you know, for the church. We would do like at the beginning of the year, we do a church fast every year, and she would say, and I had no problem doing the fast.
[33:47.4]
I mean, literally, there was one time we were helping plant churches, so that's part of our story. We didn't get into, but for five years almost, I was a church plant director for a movement here in Georgia that helped plant 32 churches all around Georgia. And so we had a plan where we were planting these six churches, and I'm all in one weekend, all within the perimeter.
[34:05.4]
It was a neat, neat two-year experience, a cohort of guys training, just releasing them. Remember the dream I had all those years? We planted a church that planted churches. So the Lord had fulfilled that dream. Before those guys launched their church, the I had fasted for our church before we launched it.
[34:21.3]
And three weeks, you know, and I just felt like on a Sunday afternoon, I just again, it was God's voice. I just, it, the thought came to me. Now you gotta remember, I was a big boy, and will you fast for these guys, church? You fasted for your church plant before it started. Will you fast for these guys?
[34:37.8]
Yeah, Lord, I'd do that. Will you fast 40 days? I'm like, that's crazy. But I, it was just so real. Like this thought was so real. I go, Amy, I think the Lord is speaking to me. What? To start a fast when tomorrow how long 40 days she's like what I go I I don't know why I just feel like I'm supposed to so long story short we I did that 40 days no eating I went from 275 to 225.
[35:00.9]
Oh my. 40 days. Yeah and and put it all back and then some you know it wasn't a diet it was definitely a God-sustaining experience it really was but here's what my wife said I said all that story to come around to this she goes you'll do it for Jesus But you won't do it for us.
[35:16.0]
Remember I said my wife's she has a way, you know, and that's what she said. She goes, "You'll you'll you'll discipline your life for Jesus, but you won't discipline your life for us." And that was about eight years ago, or I guess 2018, you know, that fall was kind of the the tipping point.
[35:32.2]
And so January 2019 began to make changes, and the rest is history, you know. Now it's fun because there's times where she'll grab me and she'll go, "Ooh, I got an athlete." And it's like, yeah, baby, you do. Come on, somebody. You guys are cute. Yeah, you guys are cute. Yeah.
[35:47.4]
One other thing that you mentioned too I was talking about talking about how we you know we have to endure things to form our character. I'm often wondering how to provide my kids enough struggle. Yeah. Cause that cause otherwise we're just going to shelter them. They're going to be so comfortable.
[36:03.1]
And you know, I think a lot of my strengths have come out of neglect. Or or hardship, cause now all of a sudden I want to be the best dad. Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm so smitten by my girls and it's a whole paradigm shift. Yeah. I mean, I definitely want my kids coming up knowing, I hate to say it, but how to hustle.
[36:20.4]
And so early on, you know, it's just part of our culture, part of our life. That I was raised that way. My dad taking me to auctions and things and just just now Ross when you're making a deal when you're negotiating this is how you do it. You know things like that and And so literally conversations like that happened like just last week with my 11-year-old daughter.
[36:36.9]
She's like, "Okay, now so if I want to sell this, like what should be my starting price?" And then if they say this, how should I, you know, it's fun. And so so they've been hustling their whole lives and we let them, you know, we encourage them. So they'll they'll create things and go to the corner there in our neighborhood and sell crafts that they've created for Christmas decorations.
[36:57.2]
Mac has his mowing business, Arden. She painted all these amazing rocks, and she'll set up her little display down there in the corner by the pool, and she's she's hustling. So basically, one of the ways is we just don't give them everything, you know, at the earliest age we start, you're working toward that.
[37:14.4]
All right, here's how you get that, and then showing them incremental ways to earn to to to do things to get there. And then the same way, like like I didn't buy my kids first cars. You got to save your money. You know, I helped them find their first cars, but I didn't buy their first cars. My son, when he graduated, didn't want to didn't want to go to college.
[37:30.7]
All right, so he graduated in June, started paying rent in July, and enough rent that it hurt a little, because I didn't want him to have an experience that didn't feel like the real world. You can save that money and give it back later, whatever. There's a lot of options, but I just feel like when you have more means, you you have to create little hurdles for them to get through, and that's a good thing.
[37:51.3]
But be be purposeful in it, you know. I still remember your story. Yeah, I don't remember. We I don't know if it was Mac or who you were button heads with at the time, but somebody was giving you a lip and you're like, "All right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take away your sheets.
[38:07.8]
All right, I'm gonna take away your mattress. I'm gonna take away your door. I'm gonna take away your light bulb." Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing. Empty room. Yeah, it cracks me up. Yeah, but but I got good kids, you know. They they they're they they're they're just they're good kids. My adult kids are.
[38:23.1]
are hard workers. Literally, my son turned 19 in March and realized he's been paying me rent and he can go do his own thing and moved out in June and he's been self-made man since he was 19 years old and I'm proud of him.
[38:38.2]
Asked me for money one time in all these years. That's been five years. I told him I said I'm so freaking proud of you, buddy. And well, especially because kids today, I mean, you know, in the real estate space, I see how stretched kids are. I say kids, but you know. Anybody under 40, it's a different world out there for people trying to get ahead.
[38:55.1]
Yeah, I thought about all the different, all the hardships. You know, I grew up, I graduated finance school in 2007, right when things were starting to, you know, all the jobs and being a stockbroker or real estate agent, everything, everything is just like about to do this. I went on like 32 job interviews before I got a job.
[39:12.2]
Wow, are you serious? Yeah, because everybody was you know laying people off at that time. Yeah, in that. Oh, I mean it was it was I mean even the church we were planting the church at the time. I mean, I stopped getting paid. I mean, it was it was tough. Well, yeah. That's when I started yourjumpman.com, my little side business at the time that became a pretty successful enterprise.
[39:29.5]
Enterprise. It was it was awesome, but but it got us through and things like that too. We were open with our kids, you know, as they saw those struggles. Not everything, but they understood like we're doing this because we have a vision. We believe in the church. It's going to come back around. This is a season, and then there's this season we have to hustle.
[39:47.6]
And so we started yourcarpetman.com and yourjunkman.com and for two years ran those side hustles and got through. Took my kids a lot of times helping with things, you know, just so they could be a part of it. And that's really cool. Yeah, I heard that people go to like Coachella and they use these sites like buy now pay later.
[40:03.6]
Okay. Two-thirds of the tickets sold at those I saw are financed. They're pay later. Really? You start thinking those are expensive tickets too, you know, and just think about the culture of this next generation that. They're like, well, tomorrow might not come.
[40:18.8]
Let's just finance everything. Right. And it's really weird because more and more people are electing to not like buy houses, a house or a car. Just rent or cars. They're not getting their licenses. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a shift that's so different from how I was wired growing up. That now that I'm a dad, I'm just kind of thinking about how I can.
[40:36.2]
Well, and I think in our home because we prioritized work and hustle, my older kids, you know, they don't get. Their generation, they get frustrated with their generation because they see like, well, we'll just ask mom, we'll just rely on mom, we'll just borrow, we'll just get credit.
[40:52.6]
And so, because they were raised the way we raised them, they don't fit that generation mentally. Socially, yeah, they're you know out there just experiencing life, but mentally, it's like it's different. So, but we were very conscious in in how we brought them along. Well, it seems like like Grant, Grant, he just never hustled for.
[41:11.2]
For studies, he's just that's just not him. Great worker, incredible mind. And so, you know, in high school, we let him get a job and moved him toward night school. And so he worked during the day, went to night school at night, had his own money. I mean, it was you know it was pretty neat. That was his his junior year.
[41:27.3]
We just realized, okay, this is the direction he's headed. He has a government job now, doing incredible, and always likes to rub in my face that he gets to retire in 20 years with a pension. Good for him. Yeah, so he's been had to get that job five years. So 15 years from now, he gets that about the same time.
[41:42.7]
We'll retire about the same. Well, hey, well, good for you. On that's your son. That's my boy. Right? That's a that's a Marcus. And he hustles, you know. He'll go to Goodwill and buy. He bought a T-shirt at Goodwill because he knows what he's looking for and sold it for 850 dollars. And he was upset because he sold it to a guy in England and then he saw the guy in England sold it for like 1200 dollars.
[42:00.8]
I'm like, buddy, you You gotta let somebody have some skin, you know? It's like you want. Yeah, you made money. He made money. Everybody's happy. He said, "But I could have sold." And I'm like, "But you didn't. You be happy with it." So he loves to to buy, sell, flip trade. Yeah, sounds like the entrepreneurial spirit is alive and well in the next generation.
[42:16.5]
It was. It it really is. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, and that's something I'll say you know I think this works with any business you know if you are wanting to launch out especially if you're creating something from nothing look back if If you've never created anything from nothing as a kid, as a teenager, as an early 20, go work for somebody else.
[42:35.4]
If the drive's not there, the drive's not there. Can you fake it till you make it? Maybe. But when I was the church plant director of that movement, the two criteria I would use if I could see if somebody was successful, and this I figured out after a couple years, no matter how they assessed on paper, if they had never started anything from scratch, okay, and if they couldn't raise five grand, you know, we as an organization gave them money to help them plan.
[42:57.7]
But I had implemented, you need to raise 5 grand first before we really even work with you. Not that I, it's going to be their money. I'm not taking the money. It's going to be part of their startup money. But if they had never started anything, and if they couldn't get friends, family, and past ministry associates to believe in enough to to raise 5 grand, their church couldn't.
[43:18.5]
They couldn't plan a church. They couldn't go into a town with strangers and get them to believe in it. Does that make sense? It was a good litmus test. It was a good litmus test. Yeah. So. When you're working with people, if if they're starters, if they've started things, and if they can rally people around them, then they can have success when things are non-existent.
[43:34.7]
It's different if there's already structure, something's already there, and they're taking over and they're managing. But if you're starting something where you don't, it's nothing, it's from scratch, that's the kind of people you gotta you gotta find, if you will. People that can see it when it's not there yet and go forward with it, you know. Well, it's so important to surround yourself with quality people and be aware that we do become like.
[43:53.7]
The five people we spend the most time with, and I'm pleased that I've got to spend a lot of time with you and I think you're a sharp guy and you you're a hustler. I never doubted that and yeah I look forward to getting on the trail with you soon man Ross thanks for thanks for having us with me coming on the Think Incursive podcast.
[44:10.8]
If anybody wants to come join you Sunday, mymomentumchurch.tv yeah momentumchurch.tv oh yeah momentumchurch.tv see him not on staff. Yeah we have a campus in Woodstock and a campus in Jasper. Check it out. Love to have you. So awesome. Well, thank you so much, man.
[44:26.1]
Thanks for having me. Bless you. You too, bro. Appreciate you guys. All right. Thanks for checking out the Think In Cursive podcast. Please like, subscribe, and share. It helps us so much. See you next time.
